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Post by Washington Captals on Feb 21, 2007 21:12:03 GMT -5
Instead of adding saves, you could always just raise the minimum start requirements to 4. If someone gets 4 good starts in the same week they deserve to win the week. The reason I don't like saves is because it overlaps with save% and more or less guarantees the person with the most goaltenders starting that week a win. Even if one person has 3 crappy goaltenders that start 7 games that week and another has 5 starts with Luongo, Kipper and Brodeur, he's going to lose that week, which I don't think is fair. GAA and SO are also important in my eyes because Goaltenders like Hasek and Turco don't get that great of Save% since they get so few shots, but their GAA is usually stellar. Also, as far as SOs go, it is true that they are sometimes quite rare but I can guarantee you that if you pick Brodeur over Fleury, you'll get more shut outs. I'm not sure but 4 starts might be risky in a league with 14 teams... some teams might only have 2 solid starters and then if an injury happens they might not make starts much.
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Post by Minnesota Wild on Feb 21, 2007 21:28:36 GMT -5
Instead of adding saves, you could always just raise the minimum start requirements to 4. If someone gets 4 good starts in the same week they deserve to win the week. The reason I don't like saves is because it overlaps with save% and more or less guarantees the person with the most goaltenders starting that week a win. Even if one person has 3 crappy goaltenders that start 7 games that week and another has 5 starts with Luongo, Kipper and Brodeur, he's going to lose that week, which I don't think is fair. GAA and SO are also important in my eyes because Goaltenders like Hasek and Turco don't get that great of Save% since they get so few shots, but their GAA is usually stellar. Also, as far as SOs go, it is true that they are sometimes quite rare but I can guarantee you that if you pick Brodeur over Fleury, you'll get more shut outs. I'm not sure but 4 starts might be risky in a league with 14 teams... some teams might only have 2 solid starters and then if an injury happens they might not make starts much. I agree, I considered a min of 4 starts for a bit but I think it would be a bit much.
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Post by chgorman on Feb 21, 2007 21:39:26 GMT -5
Instead of adding saves, you could always just raise the minimum start requirements to 4. If someone gets 4 good starts in the same week they deserve to win the week. The reason I don't like saves is because it overlaps with save% and more or less guarantees the person with the most goaltenders starting that week a win. Even if one person has 3 crappy goaltenders that start 7 games that week and another has 5 starts with Luongo, Kipper and Brodeur, he's going to lose that week, which I don't think is fair. GAA and SO are also important in my eyes because Goaltenders like Hasek and Turco don't get that great of Save% since they get so few shots, but their GAA is usually stellar. Also, as far as SOs go, it is true that they are sometimes quite rare but I can guarantee you that if you pick Brodeur over Fleury, you'll get more shut outs. In regards to your first point re: saves, sv% -- how is there overlap? Yeah, the guy with three crappy goalies getting 7 starts will win saves, but the guy with Kipper, Luongo and Brodeur will most definitely win SV%. The fact is, a crappy goalie that faces 30 shots will logically let in more goals and have a worse sv% than a good goalie that faces the same number of shots. If anything, the guy that starts the crappy goalies 7 times will lose because his sv% will be even crappier, as well as GAA, whereas the guy with the good goalies but only 4 or 5 starts will win because although he wont win saves, logically his GAA and sv% will be better. As for GAA, I just don't like it cause it's more indicative of the team the goalie is on than the goalie himself. Yeah, Hasek and Turco get great GAA, but it's not necessarily because they're good (even though they are), it's because they've got better D in front of them most nights. If a goalie is good enough, he should still be able to get a good sv% even if he faces fewer shots (just look at Brodeur, Kipper), cause logically, he should let in fewer goals if he faces fewer shots. I guess what I'm basically saying is GAA rewards average goalies on great teams, which doesn't really seem fair to me, since you're rewarding a goalie for being on a good team instead of his actual skill level, while sv% is pretty much indisputable. As I've said before, I'm fine with whatever, just explaining why GAA is a bit of a misleading stat IMO.
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Post by darkvaliant on Feb 21, 2007 21:47:56 GMT -5
Instead of adding saves, you could always just raise the minimum start requirements to 4. If someone gets 4 good starts in the same week they deserve to win the week. The reason I don't like saves is because it overlaps with save% and more or less guarantees the person with the most goaltenders starting that week a win. Even if one person has 3 crappy goaltenders that start 7 games that week and another has 5 starts with Luongo, Kipper and Brodeur, he's going to lose that week, which I don't think is fair. GAA and SO are also important in my eyes because Goaltenders like Hasek and Turco don't get that great of Save% since they get so few shots, but their GAA is usually stellar. Also, as far as SOs go, it is true that they are sometimes quite rare but I can guarantee you that if you pick Brodeur over Fleury, you'll get more shut outs. In regards to your first point re: saves, sv% -- how is there overlap? Yeah, the guy with three crappy goalies getting 7 starts will win saves, but the guy with Kipper, Luongo and Brodeur will most definitely win SV%. The fact is, a crappy goalie that faces 30 shots will logically let in more goals and have a worse sv% than a good goalie that faces the same number of shots. If anything, the guy that starts the crappy goalies 7 times will lose because his sv% will be even crappier, as well as GAA, whereas the guy with the good goalies but only 4 or 5 starts will win because although he wont win saves, logically his GAA and sv% will be better. As for GAA, I just don't like it cause it's more indicative of the team the goalie is on than the goalie himself. Yeah, Hasek and Turco get great GAA, but it's not necessarily because they're good (even though they are), it's because they've got better D in front of them most nights. If a goalie is good enough, he should still be able to get a good sv% even if he faces fewer shots (just look at Brodeur, Kipper), cause logically, he should let in fewer goals if he faces fewer shots. I guess what I'm basically saying is GAA rewards average goalies on great teams, which doesn't really seem fair to me, since you're rewarding a goalie for being on a good team instead of his actual skill level, while sv% is pretty much indisputable. As I've said before, I'm fine with whatever, just explaining why GAA is a bit of a misleading stat IMO. The way you make it sounds, it almost is as if you want to punish someone who has 3 quality goaltenders over someone with 4 mediocre goalies by making them lose a cat because they can't keep up with the starts. It's not a indication of how good a goaltender is either. As for GAA. I think we can agree that Hasek and Turco are elite goaltenders, but you can't blame them because of the system their teams play.
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Post by Washington Captals on Feb 21, 2007 21:50:29 GMT -5
one thing to consider is... no one SHOULD get 3 great goalies. and if that does happen... if we don't balance qualty vs. quantity stats that guy will run off with all goalie cats and maybe the league.
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Post by darkvaliant on Feb 21, 2007 22:12:16 GMT -5
I guess we just agree to disagree then.
I think if someone is willing to sacrifice enough scoring power to have quality goaltenders, I think that person SHOULD be able to run away with the goalie stats every week.
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Post by chgorman on Feb 21, 2007 22:43:55 GMT -5
I guess we just agree to disagree then. I think if someone is willing to sacrifice enough scoring power to have quality goaltenders, I think that person SHOULD be able to run away with the goalie stats every week. So you're saying it's okay for one person to stockpile all the good goalies, even though goalies will be the most valuable players in the league on a per player basis based on our scoring cats compared to our roster requirements? I don't know if that's very fair or realistic, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one too.
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Post by darkvaliant on Feb 21, 2007 22:54:52 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's realistic either, but in order for someone to get that kind of Goaltending, think of the kind of scoring they'd have to give up. They'd probably have to draft 3 straight goaltenders, leaving all of the great scorers and defencemen off the roster.
IF someone were to sacrifice that much, I think that they should be able to take the categories, is all I'm saying.
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Post by chgorman on Feb 21, 2007 22:57:51 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's realistic either, but in order for someone to get that kind of Goaltending, think of the kind of scoring they'd have to give up. They'd probably have to draft 3 straight goaltenders, leaving all of the great scorers and defencemen off the roster. IF someone were to sacrifice that much, I think that they should be able to take the categories, is all I'm saying. Cool. Fair enough.
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Post by Anaheim Ducks on Feb 21, 2007 22:58:14 GMT -5
one thing to consider is... no one SHOULD get 3 great goalies. and if that does happen... if we don't balance qualty vs. quantity stats that guy will run off with all goalie cats and maybe the league. How could you determine who is a quality goalie? I expect Denis, Cloutier and Theodore is gold this season. Are you going to ban me having all of them?? The point I want to make is differnet team has different value and stretegy and I don't see why it's necessary for other teams to decide what otehr teams should do.
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Post by darkvaliant on Feb 21, 2007 23:03:54 GMT -5
one thing to consider is... no one SHOULD get 3 great goalies. and if that does happen... if we don't balance qualty vs. quantity stats that guy will run off with all goalie cats and maybe the league. How could you determine who is a quality goalie? I expect Denis, Cloutier and Theodore is gold this season. Are you going to ban me having all of them?? The point I want to make is differnet team has different value and stretegy and I don't see why it's necessary for other teams to decide what otehr teams should do. All I think that was meant was "true" quality goaltenders. IE Brodeur, Kipper, Vokoun etc.
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Post by Anaheim Ducks on Feb 21, 2007 23:37:05 GMT -5
How could you determine who is a quality goalie? I expect Denis, Cloutier and Theodore is gold this season. Are you going to ban me having all of them?? The point I want to make is differnet team has different value and stretegy and I don't see why it's necessary for other teams to decide what otehr teams should do. All I think that was meant was "true" quality goaltenders. IE Brodeur, Kipper, Vokoun etc. Well if a team can manage to own those goalies. I think he/she should be the GM of the year. ;D
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Post by darkvaliant on Feb 21, 2007 23:38:16 GMT -5
All I think that was meant was "true" quality goaltenders. IE Brodeur, Kipper, Vokoun etc. Well if a team can manage to own those goalies. I think he/she should be the GM of the year. ;D That's the point
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Post by Montreal Canadiens on Feb 22, 2007 10:27:52 GMT -5
GAA is as much of a represention of the goalies team as Wins are for goalies or for Pitchers in baseball, and I can't imagine eliminating Wins in baseball because of it. What about: G A +/- PIM PPP SHP GWG SOG W GAA SV% SO
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Post by Minnesota Wild on Feb 22, 2007 10:36:03 GMT -5
GAA is as much of a represention of the goalies team as Wins are for goalies or for Pitchers in baseball, and I can't imagine eliminating Wins in baseball because of it. What about: G A +/- PIM PPP SHP GWG SOG W GAA SV% SO Those are the official categories and now that the draft is going to begin in 20 minutes, that is what the stats will remain as.
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